As a retired elementary teacher, all I could think when I read this post title was the change of the phrase with its missing comma. (Illustrated in "Eats Shoots and Leaves" picture book :-). *
"I don't know, Margo."
Thank you for this excellent treatise on reading, reading and reading poetry--and lots of it--whilst we fancy ourselves writers of the same.
(PS tell me about those remarkable vintage bird illustrations!)
*Eats, Shoots & Leaves: Why, Commas Really Do Make a Difference! by Lynne Truss.
Thank you Jody. I left that comma out so the reader could choose to hear it or not in their imagination, but you're right that punctuation would certainly help us locate the voice.
I was actually talking with my students about that book a few weeks before school got out!
And the illustrations are from John Audubon's original book, Birds of America.
Ahhhhhhhhhh.... I like your teaching methods :-) Wish I could audit a class or two. Alas, I'm in Seattle. And I thought those were Audubon illustrations!
Perhaps you will find this contradictory to your post-perhaps I have also misunderstood my reading but
The only way we might recover from the over-influence of a self- realization culture in writing... Is to recognize that the voice comes from the questions we propose, and unfolds in our ability to articulate them. I do however believe that the craft of discovering this means of expression does come from someplace we might not understand. But only in the way that self expression and self realization is dichotomized with the heart story of our bringing up. In the sense of putting words together everything we know comes to coexist with everything we didn't know we know. I feel this is essential to the passion of craft, not only that but to the passion of honesty, curiosity, exploration and truth as it might broadly embody our insights.
I ones wrote that writing is a way of documenting our world, by creating a miniature depiction of it in all its illusive , and counterly, explicit nature.
My question for you is, Is the journey to a voice meant to build determination to fuel the craft in its entirety, or is it that: As R.M Rilke say's (Summerizing here)... As we seek to look eply into our internal, we will stop asking the external- wether there is value to what we do. Undestanding that we do it for purpose far unfathomable to our craft itself. And what validation (of any sorts) might begin it's potential
Thanks for the reply Tea Table. I'm not sure I follow every point you're making, but I agree with you that it's not always clear where the means of our expressions come from, in the sense that sometimes thoughts and ideas 'pop' into our heads seemingly at random. The unconscious is a great mystery to us.
Most of the ideas we have, though, when they come to us, come in the form of how others have used the language. The way we speak, and the way we think, take the shape of the language as it's come down to us. This is true at the level of the word itself and the sentence.
Precisely the type of content I've looked for in substack. Wishing to produce something akin as I analyze poetry for theme. It's very inspiring, the broader picture of all you abstract from poetry. Insightful!
Another great essay. What you (and Eliot) say about the tradition is undeniable: Without reading and assimilating the great works of the past, a poet can't hope to develop a unique voice and contribute to a further accretion of the tradition. True! But in the case of a professed amateur (you zing us in footnote 6) like me, typing for fun not profit, discouraging. I'm 63, I never read the Augustans, I won't contribute a thing to the tradition--and I'm OK with it.
I certainly wouldn’t put you in the same camp as Rupi Kaur or Yung Pueblo or rh Sin. Your stuff is obviously better than that. And however you’d classify it, I don’t think you’d say it was similar to what they’re doing. You have wit, for one thing, and humor for another. And you read.
And nobody who writes poetry does it for the profit. Who’s ever made a profit from poetry? Except maybe Rupi Kaur or Yung Pueblo or rh Sin. But that’s all they’ll have in the end. That and a bunch of disappointed fans who realize, having grown older, that their stuff does not sustain, does not nourish or inspire beyond adolescence.
Writing is always edifying, which is valuable in itself, regardless of whether you’re writing with the tradition in mind, with the aim of making something of lasting value.
It’s a great book. I’m for more punctuation in poetry in general, even though many poets today tend to use less of it. A consequence of this is that which voice to a greater degree has to be inferred. This, I believe, ends up creating homogeneity in poetic voice. But that’s a topic for another post!
I have been reading some on the role of the “personal lyric” in poetry, that is, poems which seem most concerned with self-expression.
Even in this, I think your essay nails the mark. Rather than recent notions, which presume that the personal lyric can be devoid of any “outside” influence of tradition or past, I think the personal lyric is best placed within them. Only then is the self-expression truly honest and seated in reality. Which is where it finds its staying power and, at times, its meaning.
Thanks for your thoughts, these essays have really been helping me think through some of this as I am new to the wide literary world in many ways (still mimicking certainly) and I have little to zero education on poetry, so it’s all self-sought teaching for now. And there are many thoughts out there, I’m trying to wade through them and find what is actually valuable.
As a retired elementary teacher, all I could think when I read this post title was the change of the phrase with its missing comma. (Illustrated in "Eats Shoots and Leaves" picture book :-). *
"I don't know, Margo."
Thank you for this excellent treatise on reading, reading and reading poetry--and lots of it--whilst we fancy ourselves writers of the same.
(PS tell me about those remarkable vintage bird illustrations!)
*Eats, Shoots & Leaves: Why, Commas Really Do Make a Difference! by Lynne Truss.
Thank you Jody. I left that comma out so the reader could choose to hear it or not in their imagination, but you're right that punctuation would certainly help us locate the voice.
I was actually talking with my students about that book a few weeks before school got out!
And the illustrations are from John Audubon's original book, Birds of America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birds_of_America
Ahhhhhhhhhh.... I like your teaching methods :-) Wish I could audit a class or two. Alas, I'm in Seattle. And I thought those were Audubon illustrations!
As to answer your question for my own concern:
Perhaps you will find this contradictory to your post-perhaps I have also misunderstood my reading but
The only way we might recover from the over-influence of a self- realization culture in writing... Is to recognize that the voice comes from the questions we propose, and unfolds in our ability to articulate them. I do however believe that the craft of discovering this means of expression does come from someplace we might not understand. But only in the way that self expression and self realization is dichotomized with the heart story of our bringing up. In the sense of putting words together everything we know comes to coexist with everything we didn't know we know. I feel this is essential to the passion of craft, not only that but to the passion of honesty, curiosity, exploration and truth as it might broadly embody our insights.
I ones wrote that writing is a way of documenting our world, by creating a miniature depiction of it in all its illusive , and counterly, explicit nature.
My question for you is, Is the journey to a voice meant to build determination to fuel the craft in its entirety, or is it that: As R.M Rilke say's (Summerizing here)... As we seek to look eply into our internal, we will stop asking the external- wether there is value to what we do. Undestanding that we do it for purpose far unfathomable to our craft itself. And what validation (of any sorts) might begin it's potential
Thanks for the reply Tea Table. I'm not sure I follow every point you're making, but I agree with you that it's not always clear where the means of our expressions come from, in the sense that sometimes thoughts and ideas 'pop' into our heads seemingly at random. The unconscious is a great mystery to us.
Most of the ideas we have, though, when they come to us, come in the form of how others have used the language. The way we speak, and the way we think, take the shape of the language as it's come down to us. This is true at the level of the word itself and the sentence.
Precisely the type of content I've looked for in substack. Wishing to produce something akin as I analyze poetry for theme. It's very inspiring, the broader picture of all you abstract from poetry. Insightful!
Thank you Tea Table.
Another great essay. What you (and Eliot) say about the tradition is undeniable: Without reading and assimilating the great works of the past, a poet can't hope to develop a unique voice and contribute to a further accretion of the tradition. True! But in the case of a professed amateur (you zing us in footnote 6) like me, typing for fun not profit, discouraging. I'm 63, I never read the Augustans, I won't contribute a thing to the tradition--and I'm OK with it.
I certainly wouldn’t put you in the same camp as Rupi Kaur or Yung Pueblo or rh Sin. Your stuff is obviously better than that. And however you’d classify it, I don’t think you’d say it was similar to what they’re doing. You have wit, for one thing, and humor for another. And you read.
And nobody who writes poetry does it for the profit. Who’s ever made a profit from poetry? Except maybe Rupi Kaur or Yung Pueblo or rh Sin. But that’s all they’ll have in the end. That and a bunch of disappointed fans who realize, having grown older, that their stuff does not sustain, does not nourish or inspire beyond adolescence.
Writing is always edifying, which is valuable in itself, regardless of whether you’re writing with the tradition in mind, with the aim of making something of lasting value.
I second that Jody and was about to comment on the comma and Lynne Truss' book.
It’s a great book. I’m for more punctuation in poetry in general, even though many poets today tend to use less of it. A consequence of this is that which voice to a greater degree has to be inferred. This, I believe, ends up creating homogeneity in poetic voice. But that’s a topic for another post!
I have been reading some on the role of the “personal lyric” in poetry, that is, poems which seem most concerned with self-expression.
Even in this, I think your essay nails the mark. Rather than recent notions, which presume that the personal lyric can be devoid of any “outside” influence of tradition or past, I think the personal lyric is best placed within them. Only then is the self-expression truly honest and seated in reality. Which is where it finds its staying power and, at times, its meaning.
Thanks for your thoughts, these essays have really been helping me think through some of this as I am new to the wide literary world in many ways (still mimicking certainly) and I have little to zero education on poetry, so it’s all self-sought teaching for now. And there are many thoughts out there, I’m trying to wade through them and find what is actually valuable.