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Keir's avatar

Hi Robert, nice to meet you! I happen to know a lot about poetic meter: in bouts of ADHD hyperfocus I studied it obsessively (I even know a little about its historical development), and I have a very practised, attenuated ear. I've also written many posts on meter (first on Wordpress, then Quora, and I've contributed to many discussions on particular poems here on Substack).

I have...a *lot* to say in response to your post! Hard to know where to start!

One thing I'd like to clarify, so I can tell to what extent we're on the same page: being as specific as possible, how would you define the difference between an accentual meter and an accentual-syllabic meter?

I'll share a few of my old posts that are directly relevant to some of your comments, and some of the passages you've shared.

The lines you quote from Richard ii and Tamburlaine are headless: they omit the opening offbeat. Elizabethan/Jacobean dramatists employed the occasional headless line for expressive effect. I took a deep dive into exploring headless lines & meters in this post - in which I *also* discuss the absolutely pervasive assumption that metrical templates rise or fall (they do not! It is only at the very beginning and end of a line that a metrical template has a bearing on rising or falling patterns): https://qr.ae/pGeXBo

Speaking of Tudor dramatic verse in regards to your line, "My lot is here in Corinth, among", where you omitted the word "now", creating a natural pause after "Corinth" - yep, Shakespeare would have recognised this metrical technique too! You omitted a beat (in this instance, the 4th beat in a pentameter line). This is a technique he employed *very* sparsely, but to great effect: I provided examples in this post (in the section on "Missing Syllables". By the by, I have since abandoned the Greek terminology I used for many of the variations I describe in this blog, in favour of descriptive English terms, e.g. I now call a "choriamb" a "swing"): https://wp.me/p6PiU4-T

Here's a wonderful example of a phantom beat from the pen of Sylvia Plath: https://qr.ae/pAYyrV

Milton became just a little more experimental with his meter in the second half of Paradise Lost, but the main reason modern readers can find his lines hard to scan is because he was so bold with his contractions. The same is true of late Shakespeare, and I explored the contemporary principles of expansion and contraction in this post: https://wp.me/p6PiU4-pR

As it happens, I once provided a scansion of the opening sentence of Paradise Lost in response to a Quora question (note that I only marked beat placements; for simplicity, I ignored heavy offbeats and light beats, even though such variation plays a huge role in expressive effect): https://qr.ae/pAYygC

Within that scansion I *italicised* beat displacements, and the technical principles of beat displacement within iambic meter are incredibly important to understand when discussing or analysing meter. I cover those principles here (I think of this as my bread and butter post when it comes to communicating the technical principles of iambic meter): https://qr.ae/pGeXLZ

It's also important to distinguish between tight traditional metrical variation (which I covered in the above post), less orthodox variation (such as omitting syllables, which I covered in the first Wordpress post I linked), and loose variation. I compared two Robert Frost sonnets at the end of this post, both of which employ anapests - one very sparingly, the other liberally: https://qr.ae/pY0nT0

I briefly discuss the rhythmic properties of the 5-beat pentameter at the end of this post (as well as some other useful tips & links for beginners): https://qr.ae/pvC4Jn

And, finally, here I provide a photographic example of my own approach to scansion: an approach I find nuanced, tight, logical and consistent, and far more intuitive than simply chopping up the line into individual "feet": https://substack.com/profile/16615725-keir/note/c-101889426?utm_source=notes-share-action&r=9w4rx

Oh, gosh, that's a lot! I hope this hasn't been presumptuous of me, and that at least some of what I've shared is of interest to you! It's a fun topic, and I enjoy discussing it!

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Melanie Bettinelli's avatar

"I admit I was once confused by the way that rhythm in a poem could continue even when the feet that made it up were replaced. I lay the blame partly on my tone deaf childhood. I was terrible at music. I couldn’t keep a beat to save my life, and I still have trouble distinguishing notes. I have whatever the opposite of perfect pitch is.4 So, when I was in high school, I could hear the lexical stress in words, but not always the rhythm of the lines my teachers would read aloud, unless they exaggerated the accent. “the WOODS are LOVEly DARK and DEEP / but I have MILES to GO beFORE i SLEEP.” But when their voices fell back into something like the normal cadence of speech, the sense of the rhythm would fade."

This is me. I also struggle with scanning poetry. When I took poetry classes in college I had my best friend scan my poems for me when we needed to do that for homework. I can talk about the effect of different scansion techniques once the line is scanned, but I still struggle to do the scanning unless the line is very regular iambic pentameter.

This is probably not unrelated to my gravitating towards writing free-verse. This and my early and passionate love for T.S. Eliot.

I do like and appreciate formal, metrical verse. I just don't necessarily think that way when I write. Though I do have a sense of the sound and rhythm of the lines I write. I'm just never sure whether they sound the same way to the reader that they do to me. I've always found the whole thing a bit mystifying.

That said while I find the *idea* of Ormond's approach as you describe it freeing, I'm not quite sure I can really get the idea of syllables filling up time either. That doesn't seem much less mystifying. Maybe because I still find musical time mystifying.

Mostly I stick to loose syllabics. Sometimes lines want to be 9 or 11 instead of 10 and I let them. But I'd be hard pressed to justify why. And maybe I only think it works while people who have a better sense of rhythm are left scratching their heads and wondering what's wrong with me.

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